A recent interview in Current Affairs by editor Nathan J. Robinson with New Yorker, and former Oklahoma interior designer and outspoken progressive voice, Jennifer Welch, has a rather disarming title: ‘The Only Way Out is Revolution — Why Moderation Won’t Beat MAGA.’ Welch has gained notoriety in her fiery commentaries on her Substack podcast, ‘I’ve Had It‘, and is willing to take aim at both Republicans and Democrats as a “rage-filled progressive” as she calls herself. In a previous life she describes herself as a “corporate Democrat with faith in the establishment,” but has grown disillusioned with a party she believes has failed to meaningfully resist the rise of the far right. In her conversation with Robinson, she discusses her new book, ‘Not Today, Fascists: The Lies That Got Us Here, and the Truths That Will Reunite Us.’

Welch details what it was like to grow up in the Bible Belt, what it taught her about Christian nationalism and the rise of MAGA, and why the Democrats stay on the losing path to a Republican Party with deeply unpopular policies. She tells Robinson that those she associated with when growing up had their whole identity in being Christian AND Republican, “It’s very fused together. There’s hardly any separation from those two entities, and even before Trump the idea of Christian nationalism in the Bible Belt was ubiquitous. The political right brilliantly projected themselves into churches because the number one indicator to determine if somebody votes is church attendance.” With so little daylight between the two entities, she wasn’t surprised to see Trump’s rise with all the evangelicals racing to his side, not as a Christian man but an evangelical Christian man, a Southern evangelical. “Think about a megachurch pastor, and then think about Donald Trump. There’s not a big difference there.”

Robinson asks Welch about her comments about church hypocrisy, when outsiders fail to see the adoration of Trump in these communities: “But how do you explain the fact that he’s a totally un-Christian and sinful man?” Welch’s view is that “These people are THAT. These people are exactly like him.” She says she can’t begin to tell how many such scandals she grew up with, growing up as an atheist whose friends wouldn’t let up on trying to convert her. “They wanted me to get saved, and their pastors were always involved in some grab-ass with the secretary or some person who went to the church. There was always some sort of scandal, and how they deal with this in evangelical Christianity is forgiveness with zero accountability. Monday through Friday, it’s play with the secretary, maybe do gay stuff, and come Sunday, ‘Jesus, please forgive me,’ then rinse and repeat.”

Welch sees the familiarity to Trump’s moral depravity and all his problems, to where it became easy for evangelicals to forgive him for the Access Hollywood tape or any of his shortcomings, because their own culture is moral depravity. Saying the mantra, “Oh, I’m sorry, Jesus, forgive me,” then sweeping it under the rug before moving down the road to the next scandal. Robinson points out that Trump seems to be leaving out the part where forgiveness is sought on Sunday. He asks Welch if she sees red states turning blue without a kind of progressive politics fusing with Christianity, and refers to James Talarico in Texas, speaking in a Christian register with democratic and progressive values — “How do you think progressives should approach religion?” Welch expresses her hope that Talarico has the “magic potion” to accomplish that, but is skeptical of the electorate who keeps returning Ted Cruz to office.

And, this is where Welch offers one condemnation of the Democratic Party, feeling they have abandoned the 50-state strategy. Offering her home state of Oklahoma, she claims, “Everybody says, ‘We need to make Oklahoma better, blah, blah. Well, if you don’t like Oklahoma, Alabama, Lousiana, or any of these supermajority states, it’s a Republican’s fault. This is Republicans’ policy. But there’s no Democratic Party there to message this because they’ve abandoned all 50 states. So then that leaves these crazy-ass Republican primaries where they out-crazy each other, and it’s a race to the bottom. I would be interested to see if a progressive — and it might take four or five election cycles — really went to all of these states and simply say these MAGA politicians or Republican politicians are liars. They’ve been lying to you. They use your faith to lie to you.”

Her solution is to play offense instead of defense, instead of capitulation to the narrative that we have to be religious — something Democrats are overlooking. Tell people plainly that Ted Cruz is a liar — “Lying Ted Cruz” as Trump calls him! She sees the Democratic Party with too many “bought and paid for” officeholders, who offer only word-salad non-answers, which doesn’t fly in flyover America. She agrees with Bernie Sanders who believes the idea of right-left spectrum wins by being closest to the political-median view is wrong, and that Bernie has more of a chance in appealing to Trump voters. In her estimation, people such as Bernie, or Abdul El-Sayed, or Zohran Mamdani can make the case because “they’re not political prostitutes,” when they explain the problem that neither party has delivered the goods, that voters have been lied to.

Robinson questions Welch on her opinions of Kamala Harris after reading comments in her book that Kamala’s platform was anything but leftist. “It was pro-police, pro-Israel, and pro-business, as she reversed her original promises to ban fracking and decriminalize illegal border crossings, not as an abdication of values, but in the interest of seeking consensus,” she wrote. Welch views Harris as an accomplished, exceptional, and incredibly smart human being, and she was all-in to advance her to the presidency as the first Black female to hold the office, being completely mystified how Trump got elected twice. She concluded that one of the reasons was the capitulation to right-wing framing by Harris, with voters failing to see much of a difference between her and Trump. Welch says Harris should run again if she wishes, but will not get her support in the primaries unless she comes out with some different tactics — any sort of corporate Democrat or focus group messaging is not going to play well with the electorate as we have seen.

Welch has been outspoken in telling Democrats to be honest and courageous in calling things what they are, specifically, the Israel-Palestine issue — referring to Kamala Harris‘ agreeing with the Biden administration’s refusing to have a Palestinian speaker at the Democratic convention. In going forward, the Democrats must forthrightly confront the genocide in Gaza, necessary if they want to be a party of moral values. To Welch, the US is funding a bad movie where they are the bad guy responsible for putting sniper bullets into the bodies of toddlers, with total impunity. She refers to the rural towns of Oklahoma where schools are so poorly funded students are lucky to attend four days a week, and even luckier if they get a free lunch — the state ranks 50th in education.

She thinks of the families from which those students come, who might have to forego cancer treatment and file medical bankruptcy because tax money is prioritized to assist Israel in killing Palestinians. “And there’s no room for daylight on this. The United States of America is on the wrong side of history — we are the bad guys in this story. It’s crystal clear, and the more you look into it the worse it gets.” Robinson tells Welch her book is appreciated, along with her perspective and dedication to criticizing and exposing Christian nationalism and the right — the Christofascist state in her terminology. He reads her conclusion: “The only way out is revolution,” as she writes of Republicans joining hands with the Evangelical Church, preying on the faith and the worst impulses of the devoted. “The Democratic establishment rolled out the red carpet by refusing to put up a fight. I’m filled with rage and I’m not holding any of my punches. America deserves better than the Democratic leadership that colluded with the right to bring this authoritarian takeover, playing patty-cake with the fascists and writing strongly worded letters,” she wrote, telling Robinson that hearing him read those words only makes her mad all over again.

Welch says there are not enough words that can describe how Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are NOT the men of this moment, describing how Jeffries secretly met with Jared Kushner, and Schumer telling donors, “My job as Senate Majority Leader is to make sure Israel gets every cent they can get.” She talks of evil fascists being propped up by evil billionaires, while bringing up the big party with visiting communist Xi Jinping — “Oh, the communists are coming to get us,” as if they haven’t already! The lack of resistance from the Democratic leadership angers Welch, especially the way supporters receive treatment in such a patronizing way — “We’ll give you your marching orders. Here’s who you can listen to, here’s who you can’t listen to,” which works for MAGA, but the Democratic side is now waking up as they see funding for both sides coming from the same sources. Welch is hopeful for a rebellion within the Democratic House, seating someone other than Hakeem Jeffries; she sees no way Democratic Senators will continue with Schumer, and he knows it.

Robinson asked Welch to talk about her radicalization process, being an unlikely revolutionary type as a once-corporate Democrat, just a simple interior designer from Oklahoma. The eye-opening moments for her were in hearing Biden’s insistence that he was a candidate for reelection, as she saw fascism sitting on the deck. “He finally did the right thing and Kamala was in,” but another flash hit her — “This is b.s.,” as she saw Kamala parading around with Liz Cheney, “a great incubator of all of this fascism,” who voted with Trump 90-something percent of the time, the only disagreement being his January 6 coup attempt. Welch recalls the clip of Cheney, standing with a right-wing GOP Bible thumper, verifying that fourth-term births were resulting in baby killings, sort of like Trump’s charge that kids were getting sex changes in school. “You can’t even get an aspirin for a kid in school, much less a sex change,” she asserts.

“Cheney makes the statement with such impunity, little pushback from the Democratic Party, feeding into Oklahomans who would rather vote for a rapist to have more rights than themselves, or for their daughter — Liz Cheney incubated that. Cheney is in her position because of the progressive feminist movement, climbing the ladder that so many people fought for her, then promoting a lie from her top position that feeds the horrific anti-women erosion of women’s rights,” rages Welch. In seeing Kamala participate in fundraising with Cheney, she saw this one thing: “They’re never going to like you, Kamala, for capitalizing to their framing.” Her rage over this was almost released on her podcast at the time, but wanting Harris to win took precedence, and not wanting to be a bad messenger, it was cut. After the election, Welch started reading more independent journalism, stopped watching MSNBC, concluding that funding for both parties was out of control, which led to her radicalization.

Welch concurs with Robinson in his summation of the Obama years, which were a big wakeup call for the moderator, seeing Obama as a compromiser in his development of a health plan, and being pro-Israel — even though Netanyahu called him an antisemite. “With Obama, who gave Republicans so many concessions that they came back and said, ‘Thanks, but you’re a communist who’s destroying America,'” observes Robinson. Despite her agreement, Welch says she was “100% in the tank for Obama,” and still has a strong affection for him; yet, we should still lodge strong critiques of past administrations, such as Bush’s Abu Graib tortures and his lying to get us into the Iraq War, acknowledging that the Democrats had a big part in that, as well, with little to zero in accountability.

The lesson for Democrats is to examine what they are doing now, but go in and govern — put your accelerator to the floorboard and go full tilt like Mamdami is doing in New York without ceding points to depraved fascists — tough if they don’t like it! We have to fight for better healthcare, better pay, a better infrastructure, so why do we need approval from Republicans who make a complete catastrophe of government when they’re in charge? Welch says in her lifetime, it’s been war, deficit, recession — rinse, repeat — every single time the GOP is in office. Robinson sees Trump’s unpopularity rising because the electorate sees that electing someone manifestly incompetent and corrupt produces a country nobody wants to live in, yet he sees no promising Democratic contenders that people could support. In her book, Welch’s perspective is that fascists can be defeated because they are horrible, pushing through things people don’t want or like, but without a meaningful alternative, they might continue in power.

Welch says, “We need to take it back to the way it was, and we just need to govern incrementally; both parties contributed, Republicans more so, but both contributed to favoring corporations over human beings, favoring money over human beings, and not delivering for the middle class and working class Americans materially.” She says we may elect someone like Newsom in 2028, who will serve one term, to be followed by a “Tucker Carlson or some other nut because the country is so desperate.” Welch is convinced that the only thing saving us from Donald Trump is just how stupid and incompetent he is — if he were smart he wouldn’t be so brazen and going so fast, “but the fact that he’s so emboldened and moving at such a fast click, being so incompetent in his execution, that may very well save us.” Taking a page from Trump, the Democrats must learn that when you have power, use it, every bit of it, and GOVERN.

Robinson expressed his opinion that the lesson of 2020 wasn’t learned, only allowing Biden to squeak into office, probably because of COVID — almost an act of God? Trump’s virus response totally discredited his administration, barring his reelection. With a contiguous second term, it probably means that Democrats would have had no strategy for beating MAGA in succeeding elections. Welch says Trump 2.0 has been so devastating because he surrounded himself with incompetent, disqualified people — sycophants all, with complete obsequiousness to him. And she is still at a loss of why industry titans rushed to prop up a fascist. “They’re making trophies for him. Apple’s Tim Cook presented Trump with a trophy in what I liken to a humiliation ritual and debasing himself. You’ve got a net worth that could choke a bull, and you’re making up some c.s. award and taking it to this toddler to appease his ego?” Once upon a time, Welch says she regarded phrases like ‘billionaires shouldn’t exist‘ to petty jealousy, but now she agrees that “this class of billionaires should not exist. They are horrible people, horrible.”

On the Supreme Court, Welch says it’s insane that we have a court that is so reckless and so immoral in what they value — most claiming to be Christians. “They lead with their faith, yet value money over people. We constantly think the Supreme Court is protecting Trump, but no, they are protecting corporations, protecting a future where they want this type of rule that plunders democracy,” she charges. If there is the predicted blue wave in the midterms, she is hopeful that the oversight committee will impeach Thomas, Alito, and Roberts, and not ending up with a bunch of Democrats who “don’t want to upset the structure of the court.” She says the court is an evil entity with nobody to report to, the only people on the globe that don’t have a boss, and she would like to see the Democrats completely restructure the Supreme Court.

Robinson tells Welch that he has written a book on JD Vance, who he went to law school with, though never interacting with him personally, and that Vance follows him on Twitter. His book is entitled ‘Hillbilly Hypocrisy – JD Vance and the Dark Future of MAGA Politics,’ which deals with JD’s political transformation, while arguing that the post-Trump right will serve oligarchs and Christian nationalists seeking power and wealth. He still questions whether or not Vance will be a successful heir to Trump, or if his awkward ass-kissing will cause him to fumble the ball. Welch says he has no identity at all, changing his name three times, and ditto for his religion. “He has an Indian wife and mixed-race kids, and he refuses to condemn a racist Nazi group chat, and says stuff like, ‘Usha can’t help it that she’s not white.’ It’s just the weirdest. He’s the weirdest guy, ” she offers.

Welch recalls that Ron DeSantis was going to be the new Trump before his spectacular face-plant,  predicting that Vance is on the same track. She reminds us that Silicon Valley’s Peter Thiel took Vance, a chubby, sloppy, poorly dressed guy, and combed his hair, thinned him down, remaking him into the “country’s top prostitute, and that’s really saying something considering who our First Lady is.” Both Vance and Ted Cruz have both hit on the fact that “if you have a face that people consider punchable or inherently repulsive, get a beard. Cover the face, and all of a sudden you look like kind of a normal guy. Vance has said that the most important moment of his time in law school was meeting Peter Thiel, which is really funny because he also met his wife in law school.”